Sometimes I look at people like my own sweet grandma and my mother in law, who are both in their 80’s, with a pleasant sort of condescension. Their lives revolve around their quilt blocks and their canning and what the neighbor said. For news, they read the Budget. (For the unenlightened, that’s a 50-page weekly diary of Amish and Mennonite churches across the country.) I can’t imagine why it matters who visited what church or who, of all those spread-apart Anabaptists, is dating whom.
Sometimes my feeling of condescension–but with a bit more acerbity–extends to all deeply-ingrained Anabaptists, the ones who live in established Anabaptist communities and worry about dress standards and a marriage partner and the scandal of the girl who wore a bikini to the beach and who don’t seem to know there’s an outside world. The condescension comes because I think they live in a bubble, that they don’t know anything about the REAL world, where we worry about real issues like rape and suicide and terrorists and homeless people, where we know what’s going on in the country and don’t look at gays and lesbians like foreign evil ape people.
I don’t see the hypocrisy of this, don’t see that my own world of happy farm life and mile-high ambition is not more real or more worthy than any other.
When I was twenty-four years old, I took a creative writing class at our local community college. Sharing thoughts and discussions and words in that class stretched me. I had seldom interacted with non-Mennonites before, and thought of the other students as fundamentally different than me. They had not been taught the Bible like I had, I believed. Their lives were beknighted, cursed, because they didn’t know the simple truth of the gospel and that Jesus saves lives. I prayed for their souls.
To step from my world into theirs required great effort. I was scared of them, shy, self conscious, separate.
Almost ten years have passed since that creative writing class, and I haven’t experienced that feeling of separateness for a very long time. I feel normal now. Human. Yes, I have a unique lifestyle and set of beliefs, but so does everyone. I’ve dipped my fingers into enough realities to know that now.
The internet played a part in the transformation. When I was young, my family never listened to the radio and seldom watched television. Now I have access to whatever’s on television, radio, and more simply by picking up my phone or opening my computer screen. It’s changed me from a person who feels distinct to a person who feels a part of things.
Conservative Mennonites call a feeling of distinctness from the rest of the world “separation,” and they try for it. The children of Israel were not like their neighbors, they preach in sermons and tell their young people. They quote verses like “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing,” and, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”
My parents taught me that separation isn’t just about looking or acting differently on the outside, it’s about having a heart that is set apart, devoted to God.
When I was young, I was sheltered. Now that I am older, I have seen more of the world, but by most measures I am still sheltered. I still carry many of the practices of separation my parents handed down to me. I don’t frequent movie theaters, professional sports games, or bars. I don’t do hip-hop or listen to rock music.
Here’s what I’m wondering. Three things, actually.
- Is the sense of distinctness the Mennonites try for desirable, or does it alienate us from our neighbors, the people we are called to love?
- If we say it’s not desirable, what about keeping a heart devoted to God? Is that possible without some sense of distinctness from the rest of the world?
- If we say a sense of separateness is desirable, is it possible for those who have the internet?
Let me explain that question:
Sixty or seventy years ago, some Mennonites and Amish took a stand against television. They did not want non-Christian lifestyles and beliefs piped into their homes, and so they said no. Their “no” kept them separate, because virtually everyone who watched television became like television. They imitated hairstyles, clothing styles, lifestyles.
Now, in our age, is it possible for people who regularly interact on the internet to maintain church standards such as cape dresses, head coverings, and abstinence from politics across multiple generations?
And if you don’t think specific standards are important, but still care about the larger principles of modesty, simplicity, nonconformity, devotion–is it possible to maintain those principles for our children and our children’s children when we exchange ideas and absorb information every day from people with a different set of values?
What do you think?
So many good questions. I’ll add another, “What is ‘the world’ referred to in Romans when Paul says, ‘Be not conformed to this world’?” I don’t think it’s the created universe. I don’t think it’s our own humanness, or innate need to belong, to matter that’s in all of us, no matter our culture. We were made for perfection and wholeness. “the world” is broken. We are broken, gradually being healed by the grace of God. I don’t have answers.
Really good question and though, Yolanda. Thanks.
Whoa, those are some loaded questions. Looking forward to reading the answers. ☺️
First I would like to say, I’m glad i am a part of a church that carries out the concepts of simplicity, nonconformity and other biblical concepts! Saying this does not mean I think I’m better than others, only that I’m thankful I was raised that way. Your questions, Lucy ,are very good and thought provoking. For myself I want to rise to the challenge to keep myself unspotted from the world and still be a light to those around me. The Bible is still our guide and GODS WORD!!
I believe that these questions in this generation will eventually lead to a large division in the anabaptist church, similar to the movement in the 50s. Many of my
generation are asking similar questions. This pandemic is also spurring more of such discussions. I have no solid answers. But, personally, I feel that church standards are good safety lines to hold a certain level of holiness and separation from materialistic goals. I also feel a calling to reach out to my neighbors and colleagues, bridging the cultural divide…. interested to follow the discussion.
The Two Kingdom Concept assumes two distinct kingdoms, one the kingdom of this world, embodying and expressing the selfish values inherent in this kingdom wherever it is found throughout the entire world. American culture expresses American selfishness, Islamic culture expresses Islamic selfishness, communist culture expresses communist selfishness, African culture expresses African selfishness, and so on. The distinct Kingdom of Christ creates an alternate culture where love expresses itself in unselfishness and functions redemptively that way in any host culture in the entire world. It must not be isolated from the other kingdom but must rather reach back into the old culture in any and all kinds of redemptive efforts. Lack of cultural distinctions between the two kingdoms greatly hinders that effort by blurring the facts.
I really like your description of “an alternate culture where love expresses itself in unselfishness and functions redemptively in any host culture.” I suppose where many Christians vary is whether the distinctions should be cultural distinctions or a difference in attitudes and actions…or whether those really amount to the same thing. This discussion has stirred up some thoughts I want to blog about next week.
I am enjoying the input to these serious, but perhaps not comprehensive, questions. I solidly concur with your comment, Chester, and feel it guides us in the way of truth, as we attempt to find answers.
This is a lot to chew on! Very good questions. I grapple with some of this when I try to converse with a local person after church. I think respect goes a long way. Valuing each person and their story and trying to understand. I don’t have answers but I will be watching this discussion.
We great-grandmas are content with things like quilt blocks and canning because experience has taught how little we could accomplish with the idealistic dreams of changing the world we had in our youth. (And just to be clear, I don’t read the Budget OR spend a lot of time on the phone.) We have learned that changing the world is done one heart at a time and is the only answer to the world’s problems. And besides, we no longer have the strength to serve as we once did but we try to do what we can.
As for your questions, read the book “Separated Unto God.” Christians are to be separated FROM the world and TO God. It comes down to the same thing—a changed heart. When the heart is sanctified, you can have the internet and not want the forbidden fruit. The internet can be rightly used as a tool but if it causes us to become integrated with the world we are not separated TO God. We can be aware of current events without joining the cause (e.g. politics). In other words, we are in the world but not of it.
I love this answer!
Me too!!
This is a beautiful answer, Romaine, and all the more so because you have years of experience behind it. I respect and admire your Christian walk very much.
Amen sistah wisely worded!!!
This is beautiful
Thank you for your post. I have a question? Mennonite men wearing only plaid woven shirts. Is that a separation thing? Amish men are easily recognizable of course. I did not think Mennonite men had a dress code until we saw a group of about 15 Mennonite boys, maybe 14-15 years old and all were wearing store bought plaid button down shirts tucked into their Wrangler jeans with sometimes a fancy belt. Then I noticed adult men the same. This was at a Haiti relief sale. The boys and men would not be recognizable from an atheist at a Walmart unless with a Mennonite dresses lady or girl. Just wondering. Plaid shirts do not show small stains and my husband wears them. He also said a plaid shirt makes him look not fat.
Hi Susan, good question. No Mennonite church that I know of has a plaid shirt standard. I suppose it’s just one of those things where what one person does, another person tends to copy until everyone sort of looks alike. And another reason is probably that some Mennonites try to stay away from T-shirts and shirts with large logos…so plaid shirts ends up being a fairly predominant choice.
I’m not a writer, so my thoughts may not be presented as well as someone who writes well. And my intent is not meant to be condemnation of your point of view. I’m simply sharing my thoughts and understanding of what I read in God’s word and I understand that may not be how you see things.
Yes, I believe “distinctness,” as you describe it, is desirable. It does, perhaps, alienate us from some people, although that shouldn’t keep us from loving them anyway.
II Corinthians 6:14-17
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore, come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. II Corinthians 6:17
God’s word is true and should always be our first guide, along with sincere prayer for guidance. God desires what is best for us and is faithful to direct our path if we are willing to be directed.
These verses are God’s word to his children, to those who believe on him. He didn’t give any conditions under which we should not separate ourselves from unbelievers.
And God doesn’t ask us to do things that are not important or possible to do. He always has a reason for what he asks and he always has our best interests in mind. As born again Christians, we must be careful about the things that influence us. Satan’s middle name, if you will, is subtlety. And his job, his whole purpose on earth, is to influence Christians away from God using any means that he can. Eve was the first example of this.
Genesis 3:1-6
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not sure die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
You can see how sneakily the serpent put his question, how he changed what God said to “every tree of the garden” when God had said you can eat freely of every tree except the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Because Eve listened to the serpent and chose to be influenced by him, sin entered into the world and the communion and fellowship man had with God was broken. From that point onward, man only turned farther and farther away from God and his commandments/instructions and became more and more influenced toward evil. Even when God sent severe punishments, like the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah for example, mankind did not turn away from their sinful rebellion against God. The only remedy for man’s sin was Christ’s death on the cross, the sacrifice of God’s son in our place, for our sin. We must choose to accept that sacrifice; to repent and turn away from our sin. When we do that, God freely forgives us and restores that communion with himself.
We live in this world, but are not of this world. The things that we hear and see, such as on the internet or on TV, influence our thoughts, so subtly that we may not even recognize that we are being influenced, and as time passes, we may embrace more and more the things that we see and hear around us, accepting them as normal, even though they may not be pleasing to God.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Society/people frequently “changes the rules” because they want to do things that God has told us in the Bible not to do. But that doesn’t change what God has said. He has told us clearly in his word how we must live if we want to go to heaven. He has stated clearly the things that are sin and that will not be allowed into heaven. It doesn’t matter what society declares is right or good. If God says it’s sin, and we still do those things, we won’t go to heaven. God gave us the right of choice, but he also made clear the consequences of our choices. We are the ones who control our destiny; the ones who make the choice to obey God and go to heaven, or to serve Satan ad go to hell. It’s as simple as that, although I’m very well aware that many, many people do not accept that.
The majority of what is on the internet and TV is completely opposite of what God’s word tells us is necessary for Christian living that is pleasing to him. God is a HOLY God and has NO fellowship at all with unholiness and sin. God has commanded us, his spiritual children, to be holy.
Romans 12:1-2
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.
I Corinthians 3:16-19
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in his own craftiness.
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.
I Peter 1:15-16
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
II Peter 3:11
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness.
There are many scriptures that tell us, remind us, command us to be holy because we serve a holy God, and to be separate from the world which is unholy. God doesn’t ask us to do or be things that he cannot help us do or be.
We can’t avoid much of what is in this world and technology is increasing daily, but as much as possible, we need to limit or avoid contact with worldly things that will weaken our faith and draw us away from full fellowship with God. Without question, the majority of what is on the internet and TV is ungodly. And while we may be able to recognize, ignore or turn away from a majority of the most blatant of what is presented, we are, nevertheless, influenced by the more subtle aspects of the things we see and hear. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use the necessary tools, but we do need to be careful of the influence they have on us spiritually, on our attitudes and beliefs. And, certainly, we should limit what we use, what we see and hear. It’s one thing to use a reasonable tool, but there is no need to fill our minds with all of the ungodly garbage that is out there. That is a choice we make, and that is why it is so important to separate ourselves from things that aren’t pleasing to God; from the things that will undermine and weaken our faith.
If we have children, we need to be careful to give them a godly foundation, to teach them and help them understand what God requires of us and how to recognize influences that will draw them away from God and holiness.
God doesn’t ask us to do things that are impossible. He will give us the help we need if we want to obey. But we must ask him, trust him, depend on Him.
The point is, why would we intentionally choose to fill our minds and souls with ungodly things that have a negative and weakening influence on our spirituality? Why don’t we choose to focus on all that is good and holy and commanded by God. Why would we want to walk as “close to the edge” as we can get, when we can walk close to God and have full fellowship with him? Our full focus should be on Christ and him alone.
The answers to these questions lie in our choices, our desire to be one with Christ who is holy, to walk as far from the world as we can so that we can have full communion with him and be ready for heaven when he returns, or when we die.
Mankind cannot be holy by his own efforts. We must first be washed in his blood and born again. When we are born again spiritually, we love God and have a desire to please him and obey him, as we would our parents. Then we must trust daily in his help and the power of his grace, through prayer and study of his word. As we do that, God gives us the victory to live day by day as He desires us to live.
Thank you for this answer, Teckla. I think you did very well at expressing your thoughts, and what I really appreciate is that they seem to come from a genuine love for God and His Word. The verses that you shared call me to holiness. I do love that about God–his purity and cleanness and goodness. They call me to Him. Thank you for the reminder.
THis is a wonderful conversation, and I can only read it as, I suppose, an outsider. I belong to a Lutheran – so called mainstream – church where I don’t feel a sense of separation from the world or its multitude of peoples. I have no answers to these most interesting questions, no Bible quotes, or perhaps even full understanding of the questions posed. I only know that God is love and that we must try with all our hearts to love one another as He loves us. A great task that we falter at everyday. Separation seems a step away from that to me.
Forgive me if I’m over-simplifying but perhaps we humans overthink and categorize our and others beliefs.
Respectfully,
Mary
Thank you, Mary. I respect your point of view. My heart says yes, and I applaud.
My first thoughts went to “what Kingdom am I a part of”? That has been answered well in a previous comment. An attempt at conversation on your #1 question: I think it should be desirable, but will (only?) happen through relationship and us maturing spiritually. I’m thinking of the children and their families in our church ministry, and our neighbors or the people we cross paths with, that they can be convicted of their need of the Deliverer through evangelistic speech, but it makes a much bigger impact when they observe our lives also, when we intentionally include them in our lives. When they see us choosing God’s way, when they see us sin, and repent, they see that separation that is in our hearts being lived out.
I have a lot of concern for myself and future generations with the availability of information. I have a lot of mixed feelings on it. When I know about world situations, I can pray for them. I can also spend way to much time thinking about things and fragmenting my life. (Read “12 Ways Your Phone is Changing You”- Tony Reinke). There is an awful lot that I can simply choose not to waste time on. What I do see is the more I know of the “world” (Satan’s kingdom), the more I am convinced that I am not and cannot be a part of it. Praise and glory to Jesus!
I want to check out that book now. Thanks for the recommendation. I know our technology is changing us in very real ways!
I really appreciate what Romaine shared. It was a new thought to me to look at ‘distinctness’ as something to desire, although I am distinct. My mind also went to the two kingdoms. How my heart desires to be part of God’s kingdom!! How my heart yearns for His kingdom to come and His will to be done in earth as in heaven. How I pray that Jesus would fulfill His own request that we would be one, as it says in the hymn “Jesus, From Whom All Blessings Flow”! As I live my life from day to day I am confronted with choices one after another. It comes to me in the Goodwill store as I see cheap luxuries, or when I am sewing my dress, or when I face the choice of doing what I want to do versus visiting my lonely neighbor. I make a choice. That choice makes me distinct if I choose that which is in my heart if I am part of God’s kingdom. I realize that the Scripture does say to not be confirmed to this world, but Oh, to have a love for Jesus that is above all else on earth!
Yes, I so agree. I want my love for Jesus to be so much bigger than it is.
Back to Romaine Stauffer’s comment. I too belong to the great grandma generation. That is to say I am over 70 years old (been there, done that kind of thing) and she is so right on with her comments. Read them again. Even though we’ve lost a lot of our energy we can still have our hearts inclined towards God and live in the freshness of his love.
Mary Horst
Thank you Mary. Romaine really hit home to a lot of people with her comment. :) We need the wisdom and love of you grandmas.
Real questions :)
I am enjoying a non-Mennonite book “Who Broke My Church?” by Kent Hunter. I recommend it.
The answer is always to follow Jesus’ Way.
The answer is to be willing to change the old ways that are against Jesus way.
The answer is to keep those ways that do follow Jesus way.
The answer is not to be “liberal” but Biblical. While he promotes new songs and contemporary worship in his book, he also says many churches err thinking they “win” people by going soft on the message of Truth. He says research shows the opposite. “Give it to ’em straight” is what true seekers really want. And is what characterizes “Alive and Growing” churches.
O for a revival to get back to Jesus way! But that cuts against the “flesh”. And it hurts so good.
Here’s my challenge for myself and also yours: “Adorn the doctrine” in your community. Surprise your contacts with your love and example for those different than you and even openly living in sin. Surprise them with Unconditional Love even though we don’t preach that doctrine. Surprise them with a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit in reaching out to those people, even though we shun that sensitivity in our preaching.
Yes, being aware of the real world does open one’s eyes. Jesus would have it so. Use that knowledge of Him and the broken world to be His Light to all.
And yes you can do that right in your home community (not without struggle).
God bless you and yours in that calling.
Another great book that comes to mind: Harold Bell Wright on “The Calling of Dan Matthews”. It is a stunning story of the struggle of Dan and his girlfriend to live out the gospel against “expectations”. And yet be true to the gospel and their conscience. God help us.
Thank you for this, Marc.
“Is the sense of distinctness the Mennonites try for desirable, or does it alienate us from our neighbors, the people we are called to love?” I don’t think that the distinctness alienates Mennonites/Amish from others, but I think the accompanying sense of pride (even arrogance) that many times comes with it does. Sometimes Mennonite/Amish seem to believe their culture created and are the only people that have strong families, good work ethic, modesty, love of Jesus & trying to live out the Gospel…and are genuinely shocked when others outside the Mennonite/Amish world have/exhibit those same values. I think that type of thinking alienates the Mennonite/Amish far more than cape dresses or not watching television.
I think as people we often focus on outside differences when really it’s the inside of us that builds or breaks barriers between people. Thank you for this.
I agree with this. Some much of what we do is a heart issue but we need to respect those who differ with us. In the past 25 years I have seen issues with “music” in our Mennonite churches. Seems there is always something the devil uses to try to divide us. Lets work together and appreciate different ideas and practices. Thanks for all your thoughtful questions. I noticed my brother-in-law wrote a “comment” :) Chester W. (His wife is my sister) They are special people :)
This is a good question.
Would you be a shocked to read the observations of a Wal-Mart atheist who thinks followers of Islam are exactly the same as you, except THEY know Christians are the infidels? (and more shocking, I imagine, an over 70 grandparent who couldn’t quilt a blankie or wear a plaid shirt but makes a lovely coq au vin dinner)
I have never been separated from the world. I grew up at the cusp of TV world circa 1953. As an avid student of just about everything, I know quite a lot about quite a lot and have never stopped learning. And the internet? I adore it. And I read widely. Why would anyone want to be separate from this magnificent diversified world? Words like isolated and insular repel me.
To be separate and cling to any particular slice of religious thought is simply a prison. I personally know Mormons and Scientologists and Jehovah Witnesses as well as Orthodox Jews. First one is born into this prison, next they are inculcated with doctrine to remain. Shame and even the evil of shunning keeps the person of less strength trapped. The strong are increasingly making the jail break. Ah, but you probably don’t know about the decline of Christianity and other faiths in most educated western countries because you’re in a special kingdom that does not read anything but scripture.
Did you know Islam is on track to surpass Christianity this century? Is this the devil’s work? As they say in Minnesota, you betcha. But actually, it’s simply population growth, not a miracle. Did you know the that U.S. will become a minority white country in 25 years? Not that it makes an iota of difference. Maybe we should all love one another just because it’s the right thing to do? I never needed anyone to tell me this basic truth.
Ah but one must read more than church bulletins, I presume.
I admire the teaching of Jesus, at least those I understand. But I have almost NEVER met a follower of this man. He didn’t speak of inferior, obedient women. He never dictated a dress code. gays never came up. You all just make up stuff as you go along. And don’t get me started on prosperity gospel. Any ‘Christian’ millionaire/ billionaire is Diabolical.and by definition NOT separate, but self serving. But you have an excuse for that. You have an EXCUSE for everything.
Now, if you give up EVERYTHING and follow him. If you love EVERYONE, equally in every way, man woman gay straight, black white poor, Muslim Jew. CALL ME.
Otherwise just stay Separate, where spouting endless, almost always contradictory scripture on blogs like this does little harm.
You sound so very much EXACTLY like someone I know and miss a lot. I’ve heard these points many times, and truthfully, they resound in my head almost every day of my life. Or at least the basic point about giving up everything to follow Jesus. I have been thinking more about that recently and wondering how to do that and how to get to the place where I want to do that. It is easy to talk about loving people, and I do feel a genuine respect and value for every person that I’ve met–man woman gay straight, black white poor, Muslim Jew. But love has to be more than a feeling…it has to be acted on. I pray God to teach me how to love well.
My question, Lucinda, is this: if you are concerned about bigger things, real things that matter (rape, suicide, abortion, world affairs), how are you making a difference in the life and/or lives of the people involved in these things?
I am not sure if this is a rhetorical question, Anna, or if you want me to answer. In case it’s the latter, I will give it a shot. I try to be a friend to people who are involved in these things. I know a little bit about the heartbreak they cause, and I try to let my friends and acquaintances going through emotional trauma know that they are loved, worthy, and valued. I am not sure how much of a difference it’s made, but it is a start and the best I have to give from my current experience and time of life. I hope in the future I can do more. This is such a good question for all of us to ask ourselves. I also think it’s important to support all our friends, whether or not they have emotional trauma going on in their lives…because it’s love and support that keeps people healthy and helps them to deal with bad situations of their own or others’ making. All of us, if we aren’t experiencing current deep pain, are only a step or two away from it. We need genuine godly love and friendship SO much.
My question was genuine; I appreciate your genuine response!
Amen sistah wisely worded!!!
You ask some very valid questions, Lucinda. It is good to ask those questions and get us to think.
It is the easiest to be told what to do and what to wear and what to say and where to go. But what will we do when we are away from those guidelines?
Being rooted in the Word of God and attune to the Holy Spirit should be our guidance above and beyond our other standards.
I’m not exactly answering your questions. I feel our walk of life should be distinct enough that we don’t depend on our distinctive dress.
I love your honesty and really enjoy your blogs.
I agree that our walk of life should be distinct regardless of our dress. I am trying to learn to listen to the Holy Spirit for every day choices. Thank you for this encouragement.
Our older Pastor always said the essence of christianity is not emotion it is non-resistance. I say that because every question you asked you talk about a sense. 200 years ago anabaptists dressed the same as there neighbors, just look at old school pictures, today the men still dress the same , but the Womens dress has become very immodest , and if we are obeying scripture we will not dress immodest, Our local museum has coverings the Lutheran women used to wear. If we dress different just for a symbol it will be lost. Just like the veiling if we are wearing it only as a symbol of submission it will be easily lost, It is so much more than a symbol. (angels protection, veil our glory, prayer, & sign of submission .). many verses were already given on this topic, more would be what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination to the Lord.
I work in Amish tourist markets and people from all over the world come to see this. What a great oppurtonity to share the good news, most asked questions are ” if I’m in costume”, “But are you really Happy?” “are you amish or mennonite?” love the challenge to share truth.
One way I reached out to our community was I picked up 3 hurting city girls one night a week, brought them to my country house and did an activity with them from cooking to fishing to bible study, two made a commitment to the Lord, the one is still faithfull and serving the Lord in her church. They started at 11 years old till they were 19. Pray about it God will open doors for you, they would love to come to your farm.
Line upon line Precept upon precept we live our lives to bring glory to God.
Many people will be changed and touched by your books you write.
Marian
The essence of Christianity is non-resistance…that’s an interesting thought. My dad has already said, and I’ve always remembered that the mark of carnality is force, so that would go right along with that thought. If you see someone trying to force or pressure someone else to live or follow the Bible a certain way, that is not spirituality, that is carnality.
I hope people will be changed and touched through my books. Thank you for that encouragement.
In response to the 3 questions, distinctiveness is desirable but it must spring from a heart that is genuine about applying all bible principles. True Christianity starts in the heart and will be seen in our actions and outward appearance. Heart, actions and appearance cannot be separated. But along with true Christianity comes a heart of humility and a attitude of love toward others that shows we care about them and we dont think of ourselves as better than others. People will be able to detect what attitude is driving our lives. And it will also affect how I deal with internet…a heart focused on God will choose what honors Him. The life of Christ is such an inspiration to me…He was distinct from those around Him yet He reached out to them in love, it didn’t alienate him from them. And when faced with temptation, he chose what pleased the Father.
I like this thought very much…we cannot dwell on the church standards to keep us separate…but on the Biblical principles behind the standards. Only when we live above the standards can we be as Romaine Stauffer also said… we are separated to God!! A quote I just copied the other day that I am still pondering…Obedience isn’t Legalism, its a symptom of Salvation. -CS Lewis
What an engaging discussion your post has prompted, Lucinda.
These issues are so important; weighing the answers is something I’ve done for years. We may not all agree on the details of clothes, music, and so on, but I see, in all of the comments, a desire to protect faith and purity and an awareness that this won’t happen by accident – we have to be intentional about our lives and our faith, even in very prosaic, mundane, daily matters like choice of clothing, music, church, reading material, and so on. We are affected by what we see, what we read, who we are with. So I agree with the urgent earnestness of many of those who left comments, that these decisions matter.
Worried by society’s unbridled embrace of the latest inventions or notions, I’ve read books like The Amish Way by Donald Kraybill and Living Into Focus by Arthur Boers. These men write, in part, to restore readers to healthy practices largely lost in a society that is fast and technologically driven, a place where people are often restless and lonely.
I am from the other side of the fence. I grew up in the faith, but attended public school. Spent my childhood summers running around the streets of inner city Toronto. Attended two secular universities. Worked in many non-Christian places. Is it possible to be in the world but not of it? Should we be concerned with the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?
These are good questions. Hard questions. I’m not sure I know the answers. My faith is going to look different from my parents’ faith. The spiritual books that move them are different from the ones that move me. Can I attend a church where worship includes dry ice displays, flashing lights and very loud music, and still be set apart? Well, I think I can. I spent a few years blessed by the love-driven mandate of a seeker-friendly church that was growing – conversion growth – quickly. I joined a small group and met women who knew that God had rescued them – RESCUED them from things I could hardly imagine. Their love for Jesus was profound. Moving. Was this church answering God’s call? I think so. Did I stay there? I didn’t.
I believe one of the most important things any Christian can do is question how daily choices affect the life of faith. How will having a TV affect me, my marriage, and my children? Is a steady intake of secular books impacting how I think? What does my clothing communicate about who I am and what I value?
We won’t all end up with the same answers. We are all different, after all. And our answers may change as we change, or as the world changes, or as the season of life we’re in shifts.
But asking the questions is so important. Thank you for raising these issues, Lucinda.
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This is a great conversation; it reveals the extent of our desire to truly honor our Lord and to represent Jesus to the world – something we all need to grapple with.
38 years ago, when my husband began in fulltime prison chaplaincy, he wore his plain suit to a Sunday evening service at the prison. “What do you call that?” an inmate asked, and Hubby responded with the typical Mennonite reply that it symbolized his separation from the world. The inmate couldn’t connect with that. Other experiences in the same vein brought us to the realization that insisting on a cultural symbol that held no relevance to non-Mennonites would only distract from and muddle the gospel message.
I fear that our emphasis on distinctions has more to do with maintaining lines within our particular brands of Mennonite culture than it does to draw others to Christ. We’ve adopted a sort of “club membership” (applications and practices that identify our church affiliations) that speak only to other club members but make little difference to our world. If our best answers to questions about our practices are reduced to “because that’s what my church teaches”, we would do well to acknowledge them for what they are – cultural preferences. Neither culture nor preference are wrong. There may even be some value to them. But if our nonconformity to the world is tied up only in externals, and not in the mental, behavioral, and attitudinal transformation that results from the “renewing of our minds” we miss opportunities for impacting a world for Jesus.
Esther, you know, the thought has never occurred to me that our emphasis on distinction has more to do with maintaining lines between us or aligning us with certain groups than it has to do with with separation from the “world”…but I think there’s a lot of insight in that. Agree with your conclusion 100%.
I know this is an old conversation, but I just happen to be searching on the Internet to see if anyone has been dealing with the situation I feel, knowe exists in the Mennonite Christian Fellowship church I’ve attended for the last few years. I’m not Mennonite by birth, far from it. Yet I felt called to separate from the world (to stop participating in it’s sinfulness). So I tried Amish first Elmo Stolls community back in the 1990s. Then a few years ago I tried the local Mennonite church. It didn’t take long for God to speak to my heart about how ungodly, unloving their culture has become. Everything is ritual practices. The holy kiss, the style of dress, the ritual practice of inviting you to their home after church on Sunday. Yet they lack any real love for their neighbors. They have a complete unwillingness or desire to get involved with the community or world around them, to help with the problems that their neighbors are struggling with. Their attitude is, ” they can become like us is the solution” . They seem to think that changing ones outward appearance, changes ones heart and actions. The fact is, in my experience, is that the Mennonites do not practice modesty at all !!! Their outward appearance seems to be more important than inward change of heart.. in fact, I’ve never run into a Mennonite that had a born again experience, a real change of heart to serve God by serving their neighbor as Christ showed us. In fact,just the opposite with most Mennonites. They emphasize daily that everything is to revovle around the ” brotherhood” . And if you’re not in their brotherhood, you’re unimportant, and unworthy to be helped.
They are in my experience the most snobbish group of uncaring people, I’ve ever encountered. They have no concern, and will take no action to reach out to neighbors, for fear of contaminating their community. Yet they’ll go to Africa to evangelize, to convert people to act and behave as coldly as they do. In other words,they seem to glorify themselves, and to hell with God and their neighbor.
I’ve read the writings of Menno Simon’s, the Mennonite church back then was a totally different church in every way you can possibly imagine. There was no brotherhood in the way it’s practiced today. Divorce and remarriage was permitted for the victim who’s spouse committed adultery. They didn’t have the harsh and stoic practices that conservative Mennonites practice today. In fact, by today’s Mennonite standards, they wouldn’t be considered Christian.
Maybe it’s me. Maybe I’m looking for too much. But from my experience, all the churches have lost their way,and are practicing dead rituals, instead of life giving Christ.
Hi Stephen, wow these are really convicting thoughts for me as a conservative Mennonite, thinking about how I interact with my own neighbors and what my motives are. Thank you for sharing. I do think it’s important not cast everyone into one box, because there are many different individuals and experiences within the Mennonite churches, and also to let God be the judge of someone’s salvation experience.